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the touchiness of writers  rlw2759  19 Dec 09 2:54PM Thread Closed

how many poets on this site value their work too greatly. how many ignore good suggestions?

how violently do we defend a poem for no other reason than because its ours, and once someone tells us to change it, and we do, it seems as though it is no longer ours?

re: the touchiness of writers  rlw2759  19 Dec 09 5:15PM Thread Closed

i was in love with my poems from very early on and didn't work on them for very long, but now i'm extremely detached from them and spend months and in some cases whole years revising poems, letting them sit, ripping them apart, reincanating them in a different tone...this is because i began playfully revising other people's poems, beginning with Su Tung Po and Wang-Chi and moving to people like Stephen Ortiz and Thomas Wolfe (i won't name any live poets), and this practice has giving me amazing agility with the revision process involving my own poems...and this is how i critique a poem usually...i revise it. sometimes the revisions are major or minor or a total point of opinion, in which cases i toss whatever comment i'd hoped to voice...

re: the touchiness of writers  unknown  19 Dec 09 5:32PM Thread Closed

^ the idiot speaks.

if i could touch her with my write hand alone...  fractalcore  19 Dec 09 5:51PM Thread Closed

i am in love, is all.
thanks.


my poems?

well, i love them, too, but i'll throw them all away
just to have her with me all the time.


     ____
    __/__
      /\
    /    \
fractalcore
     : )

re: the touchiness of writers  billy423uk  19 Dec 09 5:59PM Thread Closed

i think we always have the ability to improve our writing. as writers we have no need to defend a poem a poem just is. if it can't defend itself it's indefensible. id a bit of critique say's or advises me to do this or do that. i mull it over making sure to leave my ego in the toilet.

i used to be in good poetry group a few years back the critique was well thought out and helpful i felt the place helped me grow as a (dare i say it) poet.
i'm not posting there because i don't really have anything new as of yet. so after going through too many vanity groups, where good critique is a quick kiss on each cheek and egos shine out of the residents bottoms like little sunbeams i ended up here. saw some good poetry (to get a 10 it has to be perfect and i have yet to find more than a few historical poems that are truly that good. even less in modern poetry.

poets ignoring good suggestions; that's a hard one because much of the time we don't actually understand enough to give good suggestions especially when it comes to craft. for many of us it simply of a matter of describing how the poem makes us feel (makes me feel) and how i think it could be improved. where it doesn't need improving and to some extent how well it's craft. my knowledge of the craft of poetry isn't large, so i only mention what i'm pretty sure of.

if i take a piece of advice and use it to change a poem. i'm the one doing, me, not the critic. we can only write because of what we've learned, because of our imagination and experience. if i experience a good idea i'm not only entitled to use it but obliged to use if i think it will improve the poem. when someone gives an alternative word for instance, i may not use the give word but it may make me realize the word i have used isn't quite right. i change it.

if someone says. that last line, is it needed? i'll look at it and delete it without a second thought if i agree. what i have noticed here during my short stay, is the critics ability to critique someone else's critique with a preconception as to how or why the original critic evolved.  it doesn't bother me, i'm able to have a little giggle at a perfect strangers ability in the reading of my mind.

again when we critique a piece, we don't need to be told we got anything wrong.
on one poem i asked the question, would the"his" be better written as "the".
the reply was "it's obviously the customers soup" apparently the waiter made his soup and gave it the customer.

in Japanese cooking making food is  often an art form when a sushi chef prepares his meal and gives it the customer, it isn't the customers, it's the chef dish his creation. so anyway. the excellent poem i gave comment to explained how well the soup was made etc etc and served. as a critic i don't need or wish for someone to say or point out the obvious. i'm not bothered if anything i say is used or toiletised.

i don't mind people looking at my critique and saying "what a wanker" i try and be honest without hurting. if i a the poet find something a critic says as obvious or silly i may actually pm to ask; how they would change it. by doing so i could get an insight into why they mentioned such an obvious thing. it could turn out to be a pretty relevant obvious point.

i will never, never tell a critic he was wrong in something they said, even if it's downright obnoxious. for me the critic is always right. i'm grateful a piece of my work had that effect. at least it elicited some emotion lol.

now i'm rambling so i'll hit the submit button

re: the touchiness of writers  AlchemiA  19 Dec 09 6:05PM Thread Closed

a fragile-fractured-freedom in finding voice - how does the Poet separate the voice sHe's found inside from the heart that's open-wide, pouring from the pen in words that ache all over again -- to break-my-art breaks my heart 'cause you studied semantic-history to cut-through the linguistic mystery in the conceit you're something special -- feelings are irrational, like lips blowing a kiss from a 'lil girl, whose eyes are gleaming with taking-chance at the sweetness of romance -- Poems are like children which we fuss over and protect -- like the Eagle we must kick them out of the protection of the nest and let them fly or fall on their own -- but then again, we look to the critic for critique and not vendetta, I think --

a good critic sees where the cracks are that let the light out - while a bad critic is trying to punish you for daring to write at all --  'Ich bin der Geist der stets verneint.' -- a quote by Goethe which cleverly implies intellectual pride which is wounded by the so called reason in the abyss of nihilism where one believes in nothing save ones own cleverness ( the bad critic )

alacrity plus critic -- to critique with discriminating wisdom coupled with la la laughter describes the Wisdom of Alacriticality -- when you say Alacriticality I always laugh 'cause it sounds like 'I lack criticality,'

the good critic provides the friction of mind that causes the spark of your genius to flame 'n shine

re: the touchiness of writers  billy423uk  19 Dec 09 6:28PM Thread Closed

paul someone or other stated that "A poem is never finished, it's just abandoned."

it was certainly true of the stuff i wrote. now i'm trying to rescue what i think are the good parts. never an easy task, though with the helpful insights of others. i find can fearlessly butcher them into something semi-reasonable.

i also notice that the poetry wrenched from my heart is often less loved by others than the ones unwrenched. for some reason it seems i have terrible taste lol.
for me a poem when read should leave an imprint. though it should be written with cold calculation. i have some love poetry i wrote when i first started doing this stuff. i look at it now and see how cliched and archaic it is, most of it is or would be rubbish to a decent critics eye. yet i love it, i smile when i read it. some i've posted. but if it belongs to my heart then it stays there. i put poetry here that i want to refine. my heart wrenched stuff is for my eyes only now lol.

sadly i wouldn't know a good critic if they bit my bum. i'm probably not good enough as of yet to show the cracks given time and practice i may be able to do a poem justice from a critics point of view, till then i can only post honestly without malice.

i try and read as much crit as i do poetry here. some of both are very good.

re: the touchiness of writers  AlchemiA  19 Dec 09 6:34PM Thread Closed

the good-enemy as critic

‘Friend’ – is that not a melancholy and a joy? Is it not the friend who should be your best enemy? I have seen friends who were bad actors and imitators; they longed for your satisfaction to tame their own insecurity. Their longing for your pleasure came from their fear of displeasure – and all their bad education.

That the friend be your best enemy; thus teaches conscience. For does not your enemy conjure up attitudes of disgust and contempt for what is unnecessary? Should not the enemy be as a mirror to your own ‘devils’? Then let your friend be your best enemy, for they bring you yourself; it is he who best reflects your misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

Fear not this ‘friend’, rather fear the friendly – for it is they that bring you contentment and vanity and all that speaks of laziness. That you attract the friendly speaks of your little soul’s bad thirst. That you attract the ‘friend’ teaches you to disbelieve yourself and all little Epicureans.

Thus spoke a devil to me once: ‘The friend is he who loves you the most.’ But was not that same love the love of wretched contentment? Did not that love speak from that little soul’s poverty and filth and bad education?

‘The love of a friend should pierce the heart and batter the head’ – thus speaks all good lovers.

and thus speak all good critics ...

re: the touchiness of writers  unknown  19 Dec 09 9:19PM Thread Closed

> how many poets on this site value their work too greatly. how many
> ignore good suggestions?

I think you error. Most on this site do not value their poetry enough. Probably 20% of the poets on this site could be published but they don't believe themselves good enough. Part of living to break out of the, "I am no good enough" pattern.

Many suggestions but who says they are "good" suggestions? You? Funny that the one thing about art is that it belongs to the artist period.

> how violently do we defend a poem for no other reason than because its
> ours, and once someone tells us to change it, and we do, it seems as
> though it is no longer ours?

If a poet defends their poetry, this would be an error. I am much more arrogant than that. My poetry is above reproach as it should be for all poets. The only comment I agree with is that one should listen to suggestions but don't make them if your poetry is to become theirs and loses yourself.

re: the touchiness of writers  unknown  20 Dec 09 4:35AM Thread Closed

.. y'know when you open your mouth to speak and the person you're speaking to just yawns and looks at the ceiling..  i don't think those people are ever gonna thumbs up a post.. lol

-- Leaf Rainbow

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