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re: ding dong!  Haxxen  8 Apr 13 6:38PM Thread Closed

BTW, You can bet your ass that I will look more into my ignorance based on your post.  Ty for the lesson, and I hope I brought something to you as well.

> Sorry to correct you, Haxx .. but Thatcher was in no way a "trail
> blazer" for women's rights. Not in any sense of those words combined
> did Thatcher further the cause of women in the UK.
> It could be said that the evolution of feminism allowed the
> circumstances to be right for a woman to be elected as Prime Minister,
> but Thatcher actually decreased the amount of women in her
> Parliamentary party and also cut funding for social groups involved in
> Domestic Abuse and Rape cases.
> It is through a rose-tinted filter, I am afraid, that you have been
> fed this image of Thatcher as an "excellent woman" .. but if you
> wish to know more about her .. please consider reading up on her
> stance on Apartheid in South Africa and her Governments involvement in
> training Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge in Cambodia that killed over 2 million
> of its own people.
> Here is a link to that last piece -
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34539.htm
> There is much that could be gained by reading up on her policies
> towards the Catholic Irish in Northern Ireland too.
> Thatcher was a small minded, little island Right Wing racist and bigot
> who is viewed now posthumously with unearned affection. The best place
> for her is in the ground and forgotten, but as we currently under the
> thrall of yet another Right Wing elitist collection of rich boys
> running the country, Thatcher will undoubtedly be hailed as their
> greatest leader since Churchill.... who was also a racist and bigot.
> Her death gives me no pleasure as now her successors in government
> will now gain political capital and sympathy from her death. It is a
> double negative result if you ask me.
> Thatcher did not just make "some mistakes" - she allowed and used
> her position in power to facilitate in the murder of millions of
> people in Cambodia via direct training of Khmer Rouge personnel by
> British Military personnel.
> There's so much more negative to this woman, than positive .. such as
> it was her government that deregulated the banks to allow the banks to
> regulate themselves which resulted in our banks participation in the
> last global financial crisis .. but under Thatchers reign of
> self-serving philosophies - it actually caused two major financial
> collapses - one of which completely devalued the British Economy so
> the World Bank - now the IMF - revalued our currency with loans - so
> in reality our money is only worth something as long as those loans
> are paid back.
> There was also Black Wednesday - another financial crisis handled
> under a Tory government.
> Thatcher was bad for our country, but great for our comedians and
> comedy in general as it gave them a proper target to focus on. A
> proper anti-social and common people target.
> She promised to line everyone's pockets with large amounts of money
> and her true legacy is that she ripped the heart and soul out of
> communities up and down this land.

re: ding dong!  jenn  8 Apr 13 7:14PM Thread Closed

> Holy shit Jenn...
> This is why I appreciate your input.  You are definitely a "head".
> Still though, I would ask, why pull down a woman who did the best she
> could in the circumstances she had?  Yes Churchill was a bigot, but so
> was Malcolm X at 1st.  Still, it seems to me that some people like
> Malcolm, Churchill and Thatcher found their way beyond that.  I Used
> to hate Thatch because of her ties to Regan.  Should you hate me for
> my ties to cocaine even after I got above it?  Should I hate you for
> your "seeming" hatred of men" until I see you are above it?  When
> people end up doing good, I cannot help but appreciate them.

I guess, in retrospect and closely connected to something we often find we invest far more personal feelings and circumstance with that thing.

In the same way regarding Regan the most I really know, or want to know about him, was that he was a muddled headed puppet front-man of far more intellectual and ideologically motivated masters.

Where we come from can't be weighed against what we do. There's a huge difference between the two things. It's right to equate Malcolm X with Thatcher, both regarding their pasts and the choices they made about who they were and what they actually set out to achieve.

I don't judge anyone on face value, that's insta-bigot labeling. The only judgement to make on anyone is from the choices they make, and in my opinion (and many many many other people in the UK) Thatcher may have transformed this country from a Union led political quagmire and helped evolve us into a modern democracy based on Capitalist free-market principals .. but the cost was enormous. The people cost.

..and there's the dilemma .. do we stay trapped in a semi-Socialist post-modernist eastern European model of society, or do we allow the free-market animal total and full freedom to consume people as capital and for profit?

One of the first things Thatcher did when she became prime Minister was close the "social housing" project - which was basically local council controlled affordable housing for ANYONE.
It is a direct result of this policy that the housing market today is so out of control and prices are so high that unless you inherit a lot of money you have no chance of owning your own home ... ever.

The balance and contradiction in terms here, of course, is a free market that is regulated.

Without controls the free market thrives on greed, not innovation and need.

After all that, yes we can forgive people for making mistakes .. but I don't think her "choices" regarding her racism and apartheid sympathies can be forgiven. I don't think her "mistakes" for allowing British Military to train Khmer Rouge personnel to kill millions of their own people can be forgiven.
I honestly think and believe some choices and deeds out weigh our best intentions and private beliefs for the good of the people.

There mere accidental biological fact she had two X chromosomes does not, in my opinion, make her a "woman". It takes more than owning a vag and giving birth to claim that credential.

She was a small minded, little islander racist and bigot, and she helped facilitate the murder of millions of innocent men women and children.

That is how I will remember her.
My "seeming hatred of men" isn't inclusive of just men, you know? :)

The only "good" Thatcher did was get booted out of Government, though the reason why she got booted out was for a reason I actually believe in, which is the European Union.
Thatcher believed we, the UK, should be at the heart of Europe, as do I .. but where me and Thatcher strongly depart away from one another is she believed in what is known as the "Constitutional Monarchy". I do not.
We should be a real democracy with every member of Government - representative or otherwise - being elected.

At the moment we have the two main "houses" in parliament - the Commons, which is the main political arena for making Laws, and then there is the "House of Lords" which is filled with unelected, "appointed" members who can and do influence and amend the details of Laws, and can even stop a Law being passed. Which can both be a good and bad thing.
But, the fact they are not elected, but appointed (ultimately) by "Her Majesty" is a shocking situation in this so-called democracy.
Most "Lords" are there because it is an inherited seat in the House.

It's laughable, and it's this model of Government that Thatcher supported, and it is so against my fundamental philosophical opinion of what a democracy is.

I envy you Americans for the political system you have. Imagine now having a republican woman as president .. a traditionalist and one who sent the army into stop legal political marches and peoples rally's. Often with many people being badly injured.

The true legacy of Thatcher is this .. one of the greatest riots of British history was called "The Poll-Tax" riot, hundreds of thousands of people rioting on the streets of London against this one single policy of Thatchers.

The Poll Tax was, simply put, a change in property taxation which meant you would only pay depending on the amount of people lived in the property, not on the size and wealth of the property and the owners.

This would mean someone who lived in a 20 bedroom mansion with hundreds of thousands of acres of land attached to it would be paying the same property taxes as someone who lived in a small 3 bedroom house in a town.

These are the fundamental ideas of the elite rich who control the political party Thatcher was part of - the Tory party - these are the people who want the return of the Victorian free-market model ... where human lives are for sale and those with the money to pay for them make the rules and laws.

Not my idea of a "fair" society.

re: ding dong!  jenn  8 Apr 13 7:16PM Thread Closed

> I mean what I said.  A kinder Dictatorship.

I understand what you mean, Haxx :)

It would appear that stability and social fairness can come under what might be considered a "kind dictatorship" ... just look at Cuba.

Some of the social programs in Cuba are amazing, though often developed more out of need than initial consideration of fairness.

re: ding dong!  jenn  8 Apr 13 7:21PM Thread Closed

> Where we come from can't be weighed against what we do.

Actually, I disagree with myself a bit there, lol ... I think the nature verses nurture argument is a fundamental one .. but, I guess where we are talking about supposedly enlightened by age and maturity thinkers such as Malcolm X and Thatcher we can look at who they were and who they become inside and outside of the nature verses nurture argument.

re: ding dong!  Haxxen  8 Apr 13 7:22PM Thread Closed

Jenn, I like both of your last posts.  Your wisdom is not lost here, and thank you.

re: ding dong!  jenn  8 Apr 13 7:39PM Thread Closed

> Jenn, I like both of your last posts.  Your wisdom is not lost here,
> and thank you.

I'm glad you opened the door for the discussion, Haxx. I think me and Rask would agree pretty much on everything we think about Thatcher .. which is no bad thing, but I do like contention in ideology, else we'd just be clones of other peoples ideas :)

One thing you may not know about Thatcher is her old nickname she was given in the 1970's when she was (laughingly) the Education Secretary of the Government.

She was known as "Thatcher the Milk-Snatcher" because she instigated the spending cuts in the public education system, which not only deprived many schools of funds to keep up with repairs and such and so become run down and unfit for use, but also stopped the Free Milk Program which made sure that children of poor families stopped having a daily third of a pint of milk a day.

This is the core of the ideologies she lived by and fermented later on.

She reminds me more Lady Macbeth than any other woman in history I could compare her too :)

" Come, you spirits
That tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here,
And fill me from the crown to the toe top-full
Of direst cruelty! make thick my blood;
Stop up the access and passage to remorse,
That no compunctious visitings of nature
Shake my fell purpose, nor keep peace between
The effect and it! Come to my woman's breasts,
And take my milk for gall, you murd'ring ministers,
Wherever in your sightless substances
You wait on nature's mischief! "

re: ding dong!  unknown  9 Apr 13 9:40AM Thread Closed

mor needs a brick thrown in his face

re: ding dong!  starr  9 Apr 13 12:13PM Thread Closed

Can I have the FIRST throw?  SMACK!!!  :-)

re: ding dong!  Isabelle5  9 Apr 13 1:24PM Thread Closed

Didb't know her and she wasn't running my country so I don't have much to say except that she was known as the Iron Maiden and she seemed to live up to that title.  It was difficult for a woman to break into the Good Old Boy's club but she did it, leading the way for others to perhaps do the same.

As I said, don't know enough to concur with the bad.

re: ding dong!  starr  9 Apr 13 1:49PM Thread Closed

Same with ME.  I don't know enough to concur with the bad.   I always was under the belief that she was one of the "good guys," Isabelle.  ;-)

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