poetry critical

online poetry workshop

Hillbillies and Hand Sanitizer

White trash
goat walkin
no shirt
love to take their children to the park
And while
they roast
their franks
on the grill
they spit and scratch
spit and scratch --
their children take home scurvy

8 Sep 10

Rated 3.5 (3.5) by 2 users.
Active (2):
Inactive (2): 1, 1, 6, 10

(define the words in this poem)

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need an 's' sound after 'no-shirt'... something like 'meat-shucks', love to park their children at the shuckground, roasting their FRanKs and spit and scratch where it humms, the kids watch hand-ballet: good suburban kulture burning the koran.
 — bmikebauer

how about no shirt meat shmucks? (i always loved the word shmuck)
 — mandolyn

This is hateful crap!
 — pasnitro

I ♥ hillbillies.
 — mandolyn

What's your point?  Other than being a rant that seems to be attempting humor, it's not much to brag about as a poem.  Cheap shots don't make good poetry unless you are razor sharp in your commentary.

This is dull as a butter knife in a house where they prefer jam.
 — Isabelle5

actually, only wording makes poetry -- what's said is just junk to hold the wording together: when we read a poem, we're actually hearing music from each symbol, and those symbols only mean something if the music is in a rhythmic patter holding the words together. poetry is so much smarter than short-story, but poetry is really only for smart readers, even if it can be written by illiterates in a fit of inspiration.
 — bmikebauer

I'm not hearing music in this.  
 — Isabelle5

exactly, and that's the problem with this essay. it needs to be elevated into consciousness, not into cultured diction. that's where the music comes from, as wording is formed by biological urges into melody.
 — bmikebauer

I have no idea what you mean by biological urges into melody.  I only hear music in poetry when it's a song and I've written it!  Otherwise, I just want it to have a point that is salient enough to grasp without having endless discussion with the writer.  I feel that if a poem isn't clear, that's the writer's fault, not usually the reader's.
 — Isabelle5

well, contemplate that 'biological urges' thought and get back to me on this. it's not easy learning about how poetry is written, and if you have a counter idea to my idea of an integrated intuition of poetry, then let's hear it.

and, if you're tired of the discussion, take a nap: the discussion lives without you.
 — bmikebauer

Still trying to tell other people what to do on this site, Mike?

You pompous boorish oaf :)
 — jharrison

This isn't your discussion, Mike, nor do you command and direct the force of it, though you have a need to force yourself upon the poems and poets here.
It's not a good thing :)
 — jharrison

this isn't poetry club's night, and if someone can't say something intelligent about poetry writing, then they ought not to say anything at all.
 — bmikebauer

This is whatever night we want it to be, Mike, so go fuck yourself.

Tonight is Poetry Club's night. It is Poetry Club's night every fucking night. Get the fuck used to it :)
 — jharrison

yes, but it's also writer's workshop night, so the two will just have to co-exist. the poets club could use a way more articulate spokesman than you, though. as in, why don't you write about this poem instead of me?
 — bmikebauer

I have my own intuition about poetry, Mike, which is probably not like anyone else's, nor should it be.  I don't know what you mean by integrated intuition, I just want to find what is in the poem.  
 — Isabelle5

Then stop your fucking whining about Poetry Club, Mike :)

..and stop your lying about being 'interested in the poetry part'. That's a lie and you know it, we know it.

You're only here for yourself, you always have been. You have no genuine interest in the improvement and creative momentum of the poetry and poets of this site.

Your claim to be 'work-shopping' here is a fraud. You are work-shopping for you, on your writing, using us as your (imagined) literature lab.  

I take offense to your lies, and this snobbish elitist using of people on this website to improve yourself at their expense.
 — jharrison

excellent, isabelle. what's in the poem. and, can it not be the poet? might it not be that we're confronted with a new language here, one which we have to learn to speak? our GED grammar and spelling is fit only for GED jobs, not for making and reading poetry: poetry is cumming's no-caps and pounds invented spellings and dickenson's invented rhetorics: the way the poem HAD to be written. so, is this a poem for you, this one, or not?
 — bmikebauer

You smug piece of shit, Mike.

Your lies about interested in the poem and the poetry is just increasing how much of a smug piece of shit you are.
 — jharrison

I don't think that 'new grammar' has to be unreadable.  What I love about poetry is the beauty of it, even when the subject isn't lovely.  

This piece has no value apart from critiquing a set of humans he calls hillbillies.  If he said, "My neighbors, the white trash...etc," that would make this real.  As it is, it's not, it's plastic and gives me a 'who cares' feeling.
 — Isabelle5

a grammar always has to be learned, like reading latin. the grammar is always only a way the 'grammarians' organize a language for teaching and study: there is no real grammar in language, any more than the ripples in a pond are part of the pond itself.

it's up to the reader to learn how a poetry goes -- when you read hopkins, do you just skim it? because, he won't have that: he'll show you exactly how to read him in his grammar. and, he's not GED at all, he's an oxford graduate and a jesuit priest, and all of his things were written before ezra pound first pounded a typewriter. he's one of the most important poets in the english language, and he writes in 'hopkins'.
 — bmikebauer

Aren't the waves of the ocean part of the ocean?  Ripples can be caused by outside forces or things that are part of the pond - turtles, fish, rain or wind.

I am never going to agree with you that language has nothing to do with grammar and that we make it up each time we write.  That isn't my reality of writing.  I respect that you have your own way of looking at it but it doesn't suit my writing or my reading.  I won't try to convince you I'm right, only that I'm right for me.
 — Isabelle5

What's with the GED?  I went to college, twice!  
 — Isabelle5

everybody off my poem! now! git!
 — unknown

hahaha!  I'm going, toss me some Purell, will ya?
 — Isabelle5

purell ain't gawna do squat fer dat! what yous need es sum turpentine!
 — unknown

no, the waves of the ocean are how we know ocean, but, when the wind doesn't make them, there are no waves. therefore, waves aren't part of large body of water with mermaids in it.

and, unk, if you're actually the author, then i'll bail on this one. but, only as a favor, since talking about poetry's what we're here for.
 — bmikebauer

Mike, what you say is made empty and trivial by your statement 'i only care about pc as a lab'.

You don't care about poetry, you don't care about this poem or the poet. You are a liar, Mike. You have no credibility.
 — jharrison

Hey Bauer-- Do you think this is a good poem?
 — mandolyn

Why would he care, Mandolyn? He has made it quite clear on the forum that the only thing he cares about is using pc as a 'lab'.

That includes you as one of the rats he thinks he sends scurrying down some maze of thought he thinks he has created for us to scurry down.

I understand where you think your compassion comes from, your unlimited desire for bringing the peace, but I sincerely hope you wake up one day and just slap him down and out, where he belongs :)
 — jharrison

No no, you don't understand, this is a test. I hope he answers. (and btw, I don't dislike bauer, I think he has given some really good feedback-- he may drive me bonkers but, I can hack it)
 — mandolyn

i don't think it's a good poem -- i suggested in the first crit of it how to shape this over into poetry. it's not that that's a requirement, but when you see a stack of wood sittin' in the yard, y'all can build you an out-house or a chiffonier out of it. i'd like to see anyone go for the furniture, cause any engineer poet-wannabee can make a shit-can out of anything at all.
 — bmikebauer

So you don't like anything at all in this? You don't see potential in this write?
 — mandolyn

didn't you read the first comment? about how it needs to have the words become more friendly to each other before it can start to meld into poetry? that's the potential. only nothing comes from nothing.
 — bmikebauer

so you wouldn't say "hey that's pretty good" when reading this?
 — mandolyn

( I am getting somewhere, believe me...I just need to know exactly what your first impression of this was)
 — mandolyn

no, not at all. i didn't know who wrote it, but i suspected it was too sophisticated to be naive, and that it was just a joke. if you want my re-working of it, read my first comment. i think that what i wrote was much more direct as 'lite-verse' than what the author of this wrote. this one's a collection of one-liners, no matter who wrote it.
 — bmikebauer

Ok good, now go to the threads and find the "Happy Bad Poetry Day" thread (it's the second page) and then click on page 5. Then read the second post.

 — mandolyn


 — mandolyn

no thanks. but, you know that people have done this with 'real poems', as they say, and passed them off just to get us to comment on them, and then slam us when they're critted as poetry.

if it was bad poetry day, it must have been written to be a bad poem, no? that means 'no redemption' -- it's just bad poetry. so, what's it doing here? is it refined up suddenly just because someone like me wrote it and it's posted in the holy poetry section? it's only funny because it's a parody of bad writing. as a parody, it's not good enough to be posted here as poetry parody.
 — bmikebauer

NO Bauer- I would not post YOUR writings. It was MINE. And you said and I quote:

"this is actually pretty good -- it's got texture and rhythm which make it seem like there's colors in this, and the sound of it is pretty real."

--So I posted this today to see what you would say after it's been a while, to see if what you say is real or if you are messing wtih me. Maybe you just don't like it the second time around and that is fine, I don't care if you like it or not. It is not a poem in my book. It's funny but it does need work. My point is, you contradict yourself a lot and you drive me nuts with your back and forth ramblings about my writing. One day you like it and the next day you hate it. So which is it? I posted this specifically to see if you would say the same thing or not.
 — mandolyn

^ I should of just replied with "chicken"
 — mandolyn

well, considering that the idea was to perfect 'bad poetry writing', my critique on it was that it was too good for that thread. so, really, it's too rotten for this one, because this is the real poetry space and bad poetry gets re-written into good poetry ( if the author is real about writing poetry ).

this could have been by aldus huxley and written as a parody, but it still won't get it beyond forum joke threads like 'bad poetry day'.

i'll leave it to harry to defend you and hold your hand on this, but it's not a brilliant idea to post it here as poetry, when all it was was a joke in the first place.
 — bmikebauer

Mike, you really really are so utterly full of shit.

You really are.
 — jharrison

...and yes, Mandolyn, I do understand, test or not.
 — jharrison

"need an 's' sound after 'no-shirt'."

Ignore this piece of advice as worthless :)
 — jharrison

one of the curious things about harry is how she avoids talking about the actual poetry. i suppose that's because american is difficult for her to read.
 — bmikebauer

Nothing curious about it all, Mike :)

I have told you I am here to fuck you around as much as I possibly can. You won't get away with your fraud while I am here ;)

When you have left the site for good then I will talk about the poetry. While you are here I will not allow you to think you have some permission to join me ion conversation.

Like I say, leave the site, then it will change. While you are here I will keep reminding you and everyone else here of your lies and bullshit.

Remember Mike, you only care about pc - which means all the poems and poets - as a lab. You don't give a crap about poetry, nor the poets, just as a practice and test area for your own writing.

You nasty horrible little man :)
 — jharrison

harry hates me talking to you mandee. she's a jealous woman.
 — bmikebauer

Mike hates me spilling the truth on his bullshit. He is a petty little man :)
 — jharrison

the angels weep when you lie. the truth is, that there's a poetry truth and a car-lot's truth. and, a haricot can be a poet, but a poet can't be a helium balloon. so, float away, newton, and go play with your viewmaster.
 — bmikebauer

(now look what i've done)
 — mandolyn

so, i-bell asked if you wanted anything deleted. just have her get rid of the joke exchanges specifically between me and harry, and keep any of mine or of harry's which are actually talking about poetry. it's not hard, just speak up.
 — bmikebauer

Well, I was going to speak up through e-mail so as not to hurt anyones feelings. See, I don't like crushing people.

But yeah Izzie-- go for it.
 — mandolyn

you're ok with letting harry hurt mine, though. that's class... or, maybe i'm supposed to be able to take it because i'm a grownup.
 — bmikebauer

Bauer-- that sounded childish.
I don't like anyone being hurt.
(nah, not really)

Look what we've become....
this is madness.

I should just re-post it. I mean the length of comments is from Boston to Missouri.
 — mandolyn

"the angels weep when you lie"

Then heaven for you must be an ocean of angels tears, Mike :)
 — jharrison

interesting poem
 — psychofemale

Mike, you 'talking about the poetry' is a lie, is bullshit. You aren't interested in the poetry. You are only interested in using PC as a 'lab' for your writing. This is why anything time you say 'i am writing about the poetry' is a lie.
 — jharrison

scurvy is caused by lack of vitamin C, not germs...
 — jerotich

^well shiver me timbers-- who woulda thunk.
 — mandolyn

but they eat all beef franks so... they are more chillbilly than hillbilly.
 — unknown